#76 - Interview with Lucas du Croo de Jongh - theoretical physicist, venture capitalist, investor, business angel

00:00:06: Capricorn Connect.

00:00:08: People.

00:00:09: Potential.

00:00:10: Technology.

00:00:16: He holds a

00:00:17: PhD

00:00:18: in physics

00:00:19: and worked

00:00:20: for the global consulting company in the world, McKinsey.

00:00:26: He has built a team

00:00:27: of fifty consultants

00:00:29: and now Lucas

00:00:30: de Croix de Young.

00:00:32: invest in startup and scale-up companies where

00:00:35: he applies his

00:00:36: experience and his knowledge as a venture

00:00:39: capitalist and business angel.

00:00:41: Lukas, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

00:00:45: Thank you for being here.

00:00:46: Well, thanks for having me.

00:00:48: Lucas, I would like to start the conversation by asking you, you have a PhD in physics and what motivated you to study physics?

00:00:56: I mean, it's a very natural, like very science-driven subject.

00:01:01: So what was your motivation behind that?

00:01:05: It was an adventure and it fitted well with the skills I had at the time.

00:01:10: So it's very analytical.

00:01:12: So I very much enjoyed it and it built skills around thinking in models, thinking about hard problems, learning modesty because you bump into these amazing people.

00:01:27: And how could you apply this knowledge also later in your profession as a consultant or now as an investor?

00:01:35: Okay, so models are everywhere.

00:01:37: So all models are wrong, some are useful.

00:01:43: So thinking, modeling the reality, modeling a startup, modeling futures of a startup, modeling business models of startups is a very useful way of looking at it and also understanding what the model can and cannot do.

00:01:55: So that's widely applicable.

00:01:57: It's also widely applicable in consulting.

00:02:00: That's one thing.

00:02:01: The other thing is learning to think.

00:02:05: So learning to marinate on problems that are very hard and you may or may not solve.

00:02:12: and giving yourself time to think about that, reflecting and all those kind of things.

00:02:17: Very useful skills to have in these contexts of consulting and of investing.

00:02:21: So it's about models, modeling, applying, solving solutions or solving problems and finding solutions for problems.

00:02:31: Yeah, so the one big thing that you're missing is understanding people.

00:02:38: That's not what you learn as a physicist.

00:02:41: But for the rest, it's pretty correct.

00:02:42: Yeah.

00:02:45: Now you're a venture investor, a business angel.

00:02:49: What kind of companies do you invest in currently?

00:02:52: Well, we're in Switzerland.

00:02:53: So the first answer is deep tech.

00:02:56: And then given my consulting career, which was all in financial services, I do financial services.

00:03:01: And the third category is Madtech.

00:03:04: Madtech is fifty percent of the total startups in Switzerland.

00:03:09: But I don't have the background, so I also have to be a writer who talks about risk.

00:03:15: Here comes the models.

00:03:17: or talk about financials, but I need somebody in my in my due diligence team who understands MetTech.

00:03:23: Otherwise, there's no go.

00:03:24: So

00:03:24: MetTech, financial services, that's your main background, deep tech as well.

00:03:29: With your twenty years of experience in the consulting business, how did that benefit you also in the investment process?

00:03:37: What I see when when when I talk to startups.

00:03:40: What helps them most, so that's I think a straight answer to your question, is first very basic productivity techniques.

00:03:50: How do you build a relationship with a corporate?

00:03:53: How do you project manage things?

00:03:57: How do you manage stakeholders?

00:04:01: How do you come to solutions for problems?

00:04:03: So very really the consulting skill nowadays has been transferred to the startup skill.

00:04:08: The difference is that they never got training where consultants got.

00:04:12: That's one thing.

00:04:13: The other thing is when I became partner I found myself in a situation that you have several teams at the same time and you will need to guide them at times.

00:04:24: Often they're just very smart, very capable and they can do it themselves.

00:04:27: But at times you have to guide them.

00:04:29: So what is your role?

00:04:31: How do you influence them?

00:04:32: How do you get them to take the right decisions?

00:04:35: How do you don't overrule their decisions?

00:04:38: But you get to the right decisions with them when you're not a hundred percent in the team, in the project.

00:04:45: And that skill is highly relevant for startups because As an investor, you speak with these founders and they breathe it every single day, seven days a week.

00:04:56: It's a very intense undertaking.

00:04:59: And you come in and you say, well, I don't know.

00:05:03: And you have to be very careful to get the right level of traction.

00:05:07: You don't want to get too low traction.

00:05:10: That they say, well, I'm going to do something else.

00:05:12: You don't want to get too high traction.

00:05:13: Oh, gee, Lukas said that, so I have to.

00:05:15: So that is a very useful skill to have.

00:05:17: So it's about communication and leadership.

00:05:20: Is that correct?

00:05:21: I suppose so.

00:05:22: You can call it like that.

00:05:26: Leadership is a tricky one.

00:05:27: It is leadership in the sense of enabling people to take decisions.

00:05:34: Once you move in, you have to follow the process of the decision.

00:05:38: You cannot say, well, I just... insert that and I move on.

00:05:41: Now you have to stay in there but you have to be very careful in forcing the decision because in normal situations the founder have a far better understanding.

00:05:56: So you sort of, instead of giving them fish, you give them a net to fish with.

00:06:04: So you're not playing, I'm the big leader, look at me, I'm great.

00:06:06: No, you're sort of the one that is facilitating the founders to make the right decision.

00:06:15: And you have to have the checks and balances and you have to have the trust that they will make the right decision.

00:06:20: Do founders also ask you for advice proactively?

00:06:23: Oh, yes.

00:06:26: So

00:06:27: can you name an example for example?

00:06:31: Yeah, I'm not gonna name the companies, but I can give you the context.

00:06:35: So I have a very tangible one in mind.

00:06:39: There is a early stage a startup who's doing something which is utterly amazing And if they succeed will change the world profoundly.

00:06:50: and So how it goes now is that the founder calls me quite often.

00:06:58: It calls me every two weeks.

00:07:00: We have a small conversation.

00:07:03: This is what I'm doing and I throw in ideas.

00:07:06: Well, have you looked at that?

00:07:09: Are you opening an optionality here?

00:07:12: This is one that may or may not want to move into ETH, long story, but that involves talking to professors, that involves talking to ETH.

00:07:22: How do you have those conversations?

00:07:25: how firm are you going to be in those conversations.

00:07:30: And then we debate, and I really try to, and this is a way you can look at it, this is a way you can look at it, this is creating optionality.

00:07:38: You don't want to be too strong because then you're actually killing optionality.

00:07:43: Yeah, so it does, and it's interesting.

00:07:46: It's very interesting because it's, apart from the content, it is also a moment that you partner, that you meet people, that you work on something that you're both to an extent good at, and it's beautiful to see somebody in his center and to keep him in his center.

00:08:12: of finding solutions to problems.

00:08:14: So it's a

00:08:14: fruitful partnership, a fruitful debate, both benefit also.

00:08:21: What do you think makes a good founder?

00:08:24: Are there certain traits you are looking for when you invest?

00:08:28: Yeah, so first what makes a successful person, huh?

00:08:31: So just setting the base.

00:08:33: I'm a consultant.

00:08:34: I was a consultant.

00:08:37: So you want somebody who's smart, who has social skills, so IQ and EQ, which is rare to have both.

00:08:44: Then you want somebody with energy.

00:08:46: Then you want somebody who can be stubborn and has grit, but also has the flexibility to at certain stage change ways.

00:08:55: If you look at... Many founders, if not most of the founders, give in the context, give in Switzerland and the Hochschule.

00:09:04: You find people who are smart, who have energy, who have grit.

00:09:09: So you're more looking for the EQ, the social skills, and you're looking for the flexibility.

00:09:16: And that basically means you look for somebody who's mature beyond its years.

00:09:21: So somebody... Who can handle conflict?

00:09:26: not because he learned to her or she learned to handle conflict?

00:09:30: But it's innate that they they they have an understanding of self they have an understanding of others and they have a relativity on perspective how they can understand that others have other perspective.

00:09:44: You want somebody who's able to gather People they consider better than themselves around them.

00:09:53: That requires maturity.

00:09:58: It could be ego, that they don't want that.

00:10:02: It could be insecurity.

00:10:04: It could be a perspective on life in which they think it's their role to lead and the rest has to follow.

00:10:12: But as you also, I'm a bit older now, over time you start to realize that's not how our life works.

00:10:19: And that's particular in an environment where there are so many unknown unknowns.

00:10:28: it is important to have a team around you and to be able to nurture that team around you of very different people, very different skills.

00:10:34: So that's what I'm looking for in founders, their maturity.

00:10:38: So maturity is important.

00:10:39: and to winning this to nurture a diverse team.

00:10:44: Yeah, so the opposite.

00:10:49: What am I not looking for?

00:10:50: What's when I step back?

00:10:54: is a know-all.

00:11:01: If you have a conversation with a startup and the founder has all the answer, that's the moment that I walk away because it is not possible.

00:11:12: So big red flag.

00:11:13: It's a big red flag.

00:11:15: You have a big red flag when you have a team with all the same profile.

00:11:18: Very impressive, can be very impressive, but they're all the same.

00:11:22: one up each other on that one.

00:11:25: In the context of deep tech, I also walk away when it is a hammer looking for a nail, which often is the case when we have this amazing technology and we can apply it there.

00:11:37: Why there?

00:11:38: Because the technology works.

00:11:45: Yeah, the modesty I think is important.

00:11:49: Lack of modesty or overshouting uncertainty.

00:11:54: I like founders who say, I don't know and feel vulnerable in the process because it means that it's somebody who's going to grow, somebody who's going to develop new things.

00:12:05: So being open to growth yourself and not having this attitude, I know everything and all.

00:12:14: Yeah.

00:12:15: Yeah, and the product has to be good, of

00:12:17: course.

00:12:17: Yeah Are there any other red flags you can think about now?

00:12:22: Come come to your mind

00:12:28: At this situation specific.

00:12:34: No, it's not not one.

00:12:35: can you detect that immediately when you talk to founders like when you You can

00:12:40: do tricks.

00:12:41: You can do tricks.

00:12:42: You have

00:12:42: like special questions.

00:12:43: You ask trick questions

00:12:46: the You pick up the baseline very quickly in conversation with founder, because if you have any conversation in which they at times hesitate, you're sort of having the good stuff.

00:13:01: You have the caliber of founder.

00:13:03: When they all the time keep on shouting and saying you already know from home, that's it.

00:13:11: You can create a conflict.

00:13:14: And so let me give an example.

00:13:16: We were looking at a startup.

00:13:18: very... very talented people, a nice product.

00:13:23: And there are two founders.

00:13:25: One founder we understood completely why he was there.

00:13:27: He really knew the technical things and he had the right profile, all good.

00:13:31: And the other we didn't really know why he was there.

00:13:33: What is this guy doing?

00:13:35: Then in comes a conversation that we're having and in the background there's a conflict between my partner on this due diligence and somebody else in the due diligence team.

00:13:50: And they really didn't like each other.

00:13:54: So he comes in and by accident he's just not nice at all.

00:13:58: And I was like, oh, this is interesting.

00:14:01: Let's see what happens.

00:14:02: And then it became crystal clear why the second guy was there.

00:14:06: Because he handled it very nicely.

00:14:09: And I started to be like, oh, so that's the dynamics.

00:14:12: So the one that we all the time were talking on to before, he knows his stuff.

00:14:16: He's a bit square, which was a concern that we had.

00:14:19: And here comes the other skills.

00:14:21: Here comes the one who can handle conflict, who can enroll people into their world and such.

00:14:28: So conflict is the classic.

00:14:31: Create a conflict.

00:14:32: And then see how the person... See

00:14:34: how it pans out.

00:14:36: And

00:14:36: conflict is good also because it creates a deeper level of trust.

00:14:44: If you have a conflict with somebody, if you're on the playground, you have a conflict with a friend, and you resolve it, then the level of trust is higher.

00:14:55: because you've shown that you can disagree, that the reason why you agree is because you agree, not because it's socially... favorable.

00:15:03: No, you do that because there's a level of trust building them.

00:15:08: Yeah, it can also be a stressful situation.

00:15:10: And then you can see

00:15:10: also the worry.

00:15:14: So and then you see also the personality, the true personality of a person, you know, in these to

00:15:19: an extent, let's not overdo it.

00:15:21: But it is an element.

00:15:24: Lukas also curious about what are the challenges of scaling a company?

00:15:30: from early stage to late stage, for example.

00:15:35: Yeah, so founders are trained to be resourceful and founders are trained not to play by the rules.

00:15:47: And that is essential.

00:15:49: If you have nothing, you go from zero to one, you have nothing, you have to cut corners everywhere.

00:15:57: But that's not how a bear company works.

00:15:59: A bigger company is about governance, about delegating, about managing managers, about making a machine.

00:16:11: Let me give an example.

00:16:13: If you look at early stage startups, then they tell about their first sales.

00:16:21: We saw this in grade in.

00:16:22: the customer likes us.

00:16:25: Typically, what the customer likes is the founder, not the product.

00:16:30: He's buying the founder, not the product.

00:16:32: And the founder is amazing, most likely.

00:16:35: And as you grow, you have to have decent, not exceptional salespeople to do that, to sell to companies.

00:16:47: And they will go buy the book.

00:16:49: They will not cut this corner.

00:16:50: They will not just redefine the product, because it seems that that is what the client wants.

00:16:56: So you really have to start... Thinking in delegation.

00:17:00: Okay.

00:17:00: I give you this chunk and you can report back on the other things you hear from from from the clients and then I may give that to somebody else so that Whole structure and managing all those kind of things is much more important.

00:17:13: at the same time you will If you start to pull in people from a SME or corporate world You have to grow them as founder into more loose, less of this rigid structure that exists in those companies.

00:17:36: For good reasons they exist, but in the scale-up you're still gonna be making odd turns.

00:17:44: So you have to grow them.

00:17:47: And that's a skill and that founders not by definition have to grow the people.

00:17:55: And the final one is... You're gonna go international because Switzerland is a small place and you're most likely going to the US.

00:18:03: so you find yourself suddenly having a a business that is Probably the core is still in Switzerland.

00:18:12: So the development the IT etc.

00:18:15: is all in Switzerland.

00:18:17: and then you have this wild Wide place with a different culture that you don't understand and they're all nice.

00:18:24: But you don't understand why you can't get traction with these people.

00:18:27: So you have a very different culture in a different time zone and that is very hard to manage across such a divide.

00:18:35: So developing in Switzerland and then scaling into a big market like the US is quite a step up.

00:18:46: Yeah, so there's also kind of support.

00:18:48: Hino, Swiss do their best and there's people like me and there's VCs with networks and all that, but it still is hard.

00:18:57: There's a reason why they're doing the best too.

00:18:59: to resolve one of the big problems.

00:19:02: Talking about resourcefulness, you just mentioned that word.

00:19:06: What are the challenges of finding a good talent also in the market.

00:19:10: when you have a run a scale up or early stage startup, which doesn't have a big name like Google and Apple and cannot pay the big salaries?

00:19:22: Yeah.

00:19:29: You have to inspire these people and Founders have to do that with no experience on inspiring people.

00:19:40: So that is hard.

00:19:42: At times, I say to a startup.

00:19:45: So there's one startup that is looking for a co-founder right now.

00:19:49: I said, use me.

00:19:51: I've done this before.

00:19:52: Use me.

00:19:53: I know how you get under their skin.

00:19:59: And all on the right terms.

00:20:01: There's no chickeness, but you have to make a... connection with what inspires them.

00:20:08: And that's hard.

00:20:09: That's hard in startups, but often they come with a founder team.

00:20:14: So that's less often that you need to do it.

00:20:18: With scale-ups, it is again hard because if you're going to be in a scale-up, in the management team, that's a red pill, blue pill moment.

00:20:36: You become incompatible with corporate life and they

00:20:41: as a founder, you

00:20:42: know as as a if you hired into a founder is completely No way.

00:20:47: they can't get back in because they always unavoidable Because they always want to work on the big problems and they always just let go of the small problems where their boss has delegated that to them.

00:20:58: That's that's.

00:20:59: but it's also for for For scale-ups, it is a problem in that they're saying goodbye to something.

00:21:10: So you have to manage that carefully from the startup side, that you de-risk it for them.

00:21:19: In the first period, that is a way out, a way back for them.

00:21:25: to get in.

00:21:26: So that's unconvincing, it's inspiring and managing the transition risk for them.

00:21:33: Now the process itself is hard, you have to find these people and you can use companies like yours to do that which is probably a good thing because finding people is hard.

00:21:48: And then the final thing which is very hard is if you're sitting there as founder and income somebody through the door.

00:21:58: You have all these ideas of what this person should look like, whether it should be a man or a woman, what height, how forceful, how not forceful.

00:22:08: And some of that is true and some of that is bollocks.

00:22:12: And so you have to work really hard to think, can this person with these hopes and dreams, with these ambitions and fears, Can this person lead this part?

00:22:29: I'm in a different time zone.

00:22:30: I'm six hours away.

00:22:32: Can this person do that without me breathing in their neck?

00:22:36: So I'm really talking about the leadership in startups.

00:22:41: The hiring juniors in startups is much easier because you give them a fine task.

00:22:48: They have an ambition in life which is different.

00:22:52: They have a risk tolerance, which is different, but really for the leadership, that is what I see.

00:22:57: Lukas, have you had experience with founders who came from big corporate and they set up

00:23:03: like a

00:23:03: new inventory and they had challenges?

00:23:05: We

00:23:07: have a lot of these startups from very capable people, no doubt about it, understand corporate life very well.

00:23:16: And they have an impressive background in many ways.

00:23:21: They have many skills.

00:23:23: And they start a startup to solve the problem that they had in corporate life.

00:23:29: And I think, listen, this was a huge problem for me in corporate life.

00:23:33: And now I do a startup who will solve that.

00:23:37: And the first thing is, OK, I think somebody's working at corporate with that job description.

00:23:43: You're just making them redundant, are you?

00:23:46: And that's one.

00:23:47: And second thing is, what gives you the idea that the corporate wants to outsource this?

00:23:54: And this is not something from corporate life, but it's the same problem.

00:24:07: Startup who wants to automate with AI, an administrative process.

00:24:16: And they say, listen, this is how you do it, and it makes all perfect sense.

00:24:23: But what they're not doing So it's really a paper-shoving Automated processor and then it's digitalized is already.

00:24:33: but then you have to take all these PDFs you get stuff IDPF you put them into form and that kind of stuff and that.

00:24:38: yeah, I can't do all of that.

00:24:41: But what they forgot to do is to say from wait a minute if I apply AI Not to this process, but to this business the business changes.

00:24:52: So they're trying to solve a small problem whether they should just solve a much bigger problem.

00:25:00: and as a By the way, it will also solve that problem.

00:25:04: and you see that a lot with corporates that they say no no I saw this this problem This is the problem.

00:25:10: instead of reimagining the whole thing doing a lot of reimagining now with AI from a lot of process are just not necessary anymore.

00:25:17: a lot of parts of business will just disappear.

00:25:21: And they say, for now, we can automate this little process.

00:25:23: Yeah.

00:25:23: Well, how about automating the whole department?

00:25:26: How about automating the whole part of the business with AI?

00:25:29: So it's almost, they think a little too small.

00:25:32: Yeah.

00:25:33: Yeah.

00:25:33: Okay.

00:25:34: They don't think in terms of big picture, you would.

00:25:38: Yeah.

00:25:38: But it's hard.

00:25:40: So you want, you want traction, which solving a small problem helps to get traction.

00:25:44: On the other hand, why would they go with you if you're just solving that problem?

00:25:50: There's tons of people who can solve a problem, and they can look at you and say to the junior, could you just do that for us, please?

00:25:58: So you also have the other thing which shows them that you can redefine the business.

00:26:06: Another example, funny enough, in the same sector, who got that right.

00:26:13: They said, well, we can automate this process.

00:26:16: It's right, all financial service.

00:26:19: We can automate this process in financial services.

00:26:21: But if we do that, we basically transform in your business because we can also become an exchange for you where you can see more of these documents nicely organized through that process.

00:26:35: And then the whole business changes.

00:26:37: So they did that very well.

00:26:40: Interesting.

00:26:41: Lukas, I also have some final personal questions, so our viewers also get to know you a little bit if you don't mind.

00:26:49: What kind of superpower would you like to possess if it was your wish and you had this wish?

00:26:58: My wish for a superpower.

00:27:00: I'm

00:27:00: too modest for that.

00:27:01: I can't tell you what could be my superpower.

00:27:05: And superpower is in the eye of the beholder.

00:27:11: what the value is that you contribute to other people.

00:27:16: If I look at startups, the value that they appreciate is the ability to contemplate on difficult problems and that I guide them and help them grow.

00:27:35: Be it on topics, on marketing skills or something like that.

00:27:40: or be it on interpersonal skills from, hey, observe, you were doing the following, what were you trying to achieve, et cetera, et cetera.

00:27:50: And an intrinsic part of that is I seek trust.

00:27:59: Trust is hard to get.

00:28:01: And I'm fundamentally seeking that trust, and that allows mistakes to be made.

00:28:10: as long as the intention is there.

00:28:13: And it also allows both founders and me to reflect upon, OK, this I can do, but that I can't do.

00:28:20: So I need help with those things.

00:28:22: So there you go.

00:28:25: OK.

00:28:26: If you would pick an auto biography, which one would you pick to read?

00:28:32: if you would buy one later in the shop or more?

00:28:38: I read very few, but okay, fine, fine.

00:28:41: So, before I answer, I'm going to reflect upon your question.

00:28:51: Because this is in the line of the super powers, super people.

00:28:58: who is super.

00:29:00: And there is a belief in society that a single person can be a super.

00:29:07: something, super manager, super leader, whatever.

00:29:12: The world I come from, that is hardly ever the case.

00:29:16: If I look in consulting, where they cultivate teamwork, if I look in startups, if I look in science, then there is the human need for the super person, but there is a deep understanding.

00:29:33: that's actually team who does it.

00:29:35: So when we talk about who is amazing, then it's more... the team around somebody is amazing and this person is leading the team amazingly well.

00:29:44: So what I find one of the most interesting people recent history, this is highly controversial, is dank shopping.

00:30:00: Because he lifted hundreds of million out of poverty by a stepping over his own ideology by being pragmatic, by getting things done.

00:30:15: He was not nice, he was a dictator, which is a bad thing.

00:30:21: You have this whole thing about what's a good dictator, what's a bad dictator, it's about minimum cruelty, all those kind of framers, and that's true.

00:30:28: I don't think he was a minimal cruel, I think he was cruel.

00:30:30: So he could have been less cruel and achieved the thing, which would make him... a morally right person, so I think he was not completely morally right.

00:30:41: But the ability to do the thing that actually lifts so many people out of poverty, develops a whole nation, I find that highly inspiring.

00:30:55: And fundamentally, I'm a Democrat.

00:30:59: Fundamentally, I believe in democracy.

00:31:02: I think it is the best state for him.

00:31:07: I think the burden is on us to formulate an answer against these dictatorships like China, who was massively successful at this moment in time, in a democratic context.

00:31:23: And that requires people growing up and not looking for simple solutions to difficult problems.

00:31:32: Yeah, China had an impressive journey.

00:31:36: So also I have a question, do you have like a mission statement, sort of a slogan, a motto you live by?

00:31:46: I'm very protestant, I respect.

00:31:48: Leave the place better than you found it.

00:31:50: Yeah, that's

00:31:51: a good one, that's a good one.

00:31:52: And final question, Lukas, AI, I mean, has a huge impact on our lives.

00:31:59: How will AI change your life in two years?

00:32:03: Well, I'm comfortable.

00:32:08: Okay, I will do a lot of process automations across the board.

00:32:19: That is very predictable.

00:32:21: That will happen.

00:32:24: It will also reimagine industries and such.

00:32:33: That is pretty predictable that that will happen and we'll all use it.

00:32:41: We're talking about global leadership.

00:32:45: This one is missing.

00:32:48: I will lead to a very large displacement of labor.

00:32:52: And if you just read the news right now about graduates trying to find a job, it's happening already.

00:33:00: So all the entry-level jobs, what did they do?

00:33:02: They basically did organizing tables, organizing texts, organizing things, and I can do that well.

00:33:09: So you see this entrance into the workforce is being cut off.

00:33:15: So this is happening in real time.

00:33:18: And that is very concerning because to maintain a society in which people can live... lives worth living, they need to have a source of income.

00:33:34: So it's a concern and it is a lack of leadership there on a societal level to address this very large challenge that is coming

00:33:44: our way.

00:33:45: Do you think we will have discussions like universal income again?

00:33:48: Will that be topics in the future?

00:33:57: It's almost a yes-no question.

00:34:00: We will have universal income.

00:34:03: You can call it different things.

00:34:06: You can call it a period which is finance so that you can reeducate yourself.

00:34:12: It can be a little skew in medical cost away from the poor people.

00:34:22: So there's many ways.

00:34:25: The difficulty, of course, is that it is To a large extent, an experiment, and everybody's afraid for the reduction in incentive to work.

00:34:36: The few experiments that have been done do not show that.

00:34:40: They show that people are basically just happier.

00:34:44: And they still thrive to get work, especially if you look at the more northern European... Protestant culture, which work is a cornerstone for a lot of people, they will try to have that.

00:35:02: And I think there's just too little experience.

00:35:04: There have to be more experiments with.

00:35:06: how can you do it, because the problem is coming.

00:35:09: We know that

00:35:10: it's coming.

00:35:10: Yeah.

00:35:13: No,

00:35:14: we're a man to be seen.

00:35:17: Lucas de Corde Young venture capitalist business agent.

00:35:21: Thank you so much for being here.

00:35:23: It was a true pleasure.

00:35:24: I'm looking forward to our next conversation.

00:35:27: Likewise, thank you.

00:35:28: Cheers Capricorn.

00:35:34: connect people potential technology.