#106 - Interview with Jennifer Thamm - Founder and CEO of SaysLife

00:00:00: As a native Californian living in Zurich since twenty years, she is the wife and mother of two young children.

00:00:06: And an ice hockey coach for local hockey school.

00:00:09: Jennifer Tam worked globally for multinational companies such as Zurich Insurance UBS & Thompson Reuters at The Intersection Of Digital Transformation Risk Management and as global executives and strategists with Twenty Years At The Intersections

00:00:24: Of People

00:00:25: Risk Digital transformation and Ethical Governance Helping leadership teams build the organizational resilience needed to scale with integrity.

00:00:34: Jennifer's mission is to create a healthy and high-performing professional environment.

00:00:39: as The founder of CESLife, she provides an innovative automated solution for corporate well being governance and regulatory reporting To create an environment for people that feel less stressed more in balance connected And control their lives.

00:01:13: Jennifer, thank you so much for dropping by on such a spontaneous quick note and I would love to hear what's going in your world at the moment because we already had a podcast.

00:01:28: You're becoming irregular so-to speak So maybe you can tell us?

00:01:33: I really know quite well about your background but may be you could tell our audience what, as you are a CEO and founder of CESLIFE.

00:01:42: What CESlife is doing?

00:01:44: Thanks for having me here.

00:01:45: I appreciate the invitation And it's always nice to see you.

00:01:49: So there's lot stuff going on right now so It's wonderful have had opportunity speak with your guests.

00:01:56: We've got lots things going on with CES life.

00:01:59: So CESlife was founded because i felt like risk manager in corporate environment.

00:02:04: we needed take structured approach to how we looked at the employee well-being and all this stress related issues that were happening over, and over again in the corporations I was working with.

00:02:17: So i set out to found an automated way that was ethical.

00:02:21: it didn't monitor employees really protected privacy of individual especially leadership and employees alike And gave structured reporting capabilities requirements that corporations need.

00:02:36: So, I set out to build that which i've been doing for the last few years.

00:02:40: I have a good team behind me now.

00:02:43: That helps me execute because I am quite busy juggling regular life being a mom and wife And trying take care of myself at same time Which is not always easy.

00:02:56: Jennifer you built successful company At the same time.

00:02:59: You had two kids managed family life.

00:03:02: How do you manage these both worlds?

00:03:05: It must be pretty exciting and tough,

00:03:10: there's always something going on.

00:03:12: There is ALWAYS SOMETHING GOING ON!

00:03:14: And it IS TOUGH.

00:03:17: IT'S NOT ALWAYZ EASY.

00:03:18: Some days are better than others.

00:03:20: The morning rush to get everybody out the door of school is always stressful...and also when they come home in its dinner time.

00:03:29: I think that's a peak times how I manage, i've got a great husband who also has his own company and so it's allowed us to have some flexibility.

00:03:39: And we just try support each other as best possible.

00:03:45: thank the Lord that I have really nice kids, that help us in a process and so they're not too bad themselves.

00:03:51: So time management probably is pretty good in your household?

00:03:55: Yeah

00:03:55: well i was actually recognizing it's always a crescendo of activity and craziness around dinner times...so just trying to focus on the times during the day..that were really stressful.

00:04:07: how difficult for us balance getting our work done And then getting kids fed and bathed, off to bed.

00:04:16: Or in the morning time really get everybody ready for school or work.

00:04:22: Those were like two times during that day so I just focused on those.

00:04:28: How can we manage each other?

00:04:30: What are our schedules with my husband working what's not?

00:04:36: Jennifer, I would like to talk about also the issues that you address with SESLIFE.

00:04:41: The health-related issue.

00:04:43: Can we talk?

00:04:45: what's going on in the corporations?

00:04:46: In terms of health and well being of employees What are illnesses or diseases That concern people?

00:04:57: Maybe can talk a little bit.

00:04:59: So there will probably be challenges for me To go into anyone specifically.

00:05:06: But if I were to give some general numbers out here that are overwhelming, so the WHO has announced just over eighty percent of the employee population have challenges with mental health.

00:05:19: This is a massive problem!

00:05:22: Here in Switzerland we live and there's a tremendous growing proportion of insurance claims from companies who have to do with employee-mental health And in general, the numbers are staggering.

00:05:35: So it is estimated to be over a trillion dollars per year globally for corporations collectively.

00:05:41: around all this stress well-being related incidents and workplace.

00:05:47: so if you want to look at anything from absenteeism so that's people not showing up to work for whatever reason might be too present he has them which as the word around describing people showing up but they're not really performing at their best and might just kind of be there.

00:06:06: They are taking up space, doing the best that they can for whatever reason.

00:06:11: it's no top performance in a particular time.

00:06:15: so these are some struggles we have as society.

00:06:18: if you throw into the topic longevity then now I real systemic system needs to approach.

00:06:27: looked at differently then maybe not just yoga at lunchtime.

00:06:31: Maybe we need to have some structured programs and frameworks around this, to be able accommodate for longer lives as well as more complicated and challenges that are around mental health particularly after

00:06:43: the pandemic.

00:06:44: So what do you talk about?

00:06:46: What kind of diseases or illnesses is it?

00:06:48: Are we talking about depression?

00:06:51: Can you name a few

00:06:53: diseases... There are two specific Gold standard assessments at the moment that are around depression and anxiety, so those assessments were typically used.

00:07:04: We've woven in those principles also in the application we built with SES Life And there's other well-being and therapy employee assistance programs That use these assessments as well specifically about depression and Anxiety.

00:07:21: Then theres a whole host of things to get looked up but The important thing is It doesn't matter what challenge a person has and the opportunities that they may have for improvement.

00:07:35: What matters is their privacy as maintained, so they don't feel exposed to their employer or manager in any way.

00:07:45: shape of form because it's something private.

00:07:50: the level of understanding and support that corporations do provide to employees.

00:08:02: We need to be able to encourage the employees, take advantage of those services without feeling a loss of trust

00:08:08: So they can feel safe?

00:08:10: The relevant person or employee.

00:08:13: And at the same time let's say I'm an employee I don't need to tell my boss immediately.

00:08:21: You

00:08:22: shouldn' t have too, not every company does that.

00:08:24: but as a best practice you shouldnt have your manager or HR.

00:08:38: coaching or therapy program, and a lot of larger corporations offer this.

00:08:44: And the challenge some of these smaller corporations have are businesses is that there's just not really enough resources to be able provide that your company in your employees so you'll look at other ways to manage better well-being and perspective for their employees.

00:09:02: So companies lose alot money as a result of these illnesses through absenteeism and, how do you call it?

00:09:12: Presenteeism.

00:09:14: So basically... You go to the workplace but your just a zombie or shut off!

00:09:20: Basically not a performer anymore Just

00:09:23: not necessarily performing

00:09:25: at your best.

00:09:27: But there's also stress-related incidents, so hazard risks exist.

00:09:31: So slip and fall type of accidents

00:09:34: that happens as well

00:09:35: could be exacerbated because people are not feeling That great that day right?

00:09:42: So their mind is somewhere else You know.

00:09:45: And it doesn't necessarily have to be because of a controlled work environment.

00:09:49: It could be something that happened outside of work structured evaluation for the employees or around their well-being and a holistic perspective of their wellbeing private because it might not have anything to do with work.

00:10:07: And how does SESLIFE help the corporation, all the employees?

00:10:12: To prevent those kind of situations?

00:10:16: Good question!

00:10:18: So we are NOT a diagnostic tool reason why a person is not performing well.

00:10:28: And we certainly don't have any sort of structure where a boss, manager or HR board of directors would ever find out what an individual's responses are.

00:10:38: so We keep no trust policy built in our software system.

00:10:42: So everyone is very safe and the reports are individual.

00:10:46: And then this blueprint around holistic life balance is focused on really encouraging an individual to use the existing resources around coaching and employee assistance programs.

00:10:59: We want to reduce their risk for the organization, so what that means is estimating the amount of risks they have, encouraging people to understand where they stand at that particular day, which might change over time.

00:11:14: So how I am today might not be how I'm in three months from now or six months from know.

00:11:21: In regular intervals you can always do these check-ins and it gives feedback privately to the person and encourages them to utilize the employee assistance programs that are in place.

00:11:33: And then the other blueprint we have is really around this structured risk management of identifying what are all, the unknowns happening in your workplace.

00:11:43: What don't you know about?

00:11:44: How can we help focus on a problem and not a person so that they do not want to blame someone.

00:11:50: You wanna be able give leadership particularly at the comfort level by looking at well-being and creating a structured framework around it that includes double materiality, which is how does it impact our operations?

00:12:06: And How Does It Impact Us financially.

00:12:09: Um...it gives them the safety That when they have this program inside their office looking at their department its not going to be a blame game And a lot of leadership need to be aware that, particularly in large corporates.

00:12:25: Yeah especially if you... In the upper management I mean also don't want show weaknesses.

00:12:31: it's power game so they're important that top management feels safe.

00:12:37: If they didn't wanna expose themselves Yes To the power politics then

00:12:42: Exactly So.

00:12:43: our second blueprint we have and software really focuses on that the framework, a risk management framework for corporation maintains the focus on problems and issues you have.

00:12:56: And identifying opportunities.

00:12:58: so it's great workflow we think is scalable across large global organizations even through your supply chain.

00:13:08: The important point around leadership brought up is that leadership should not be ignored when it comes to well-being And that's the whole reason, actually I started SESLIFE.

00:13:23: It shouldn't be underestimated just because they might earn a high salary... ...that they feel good on the inside and through lot of research we were doing in our early days.. ..I found almost every single executive I was interviewing felt lonely to certain degree Right?

00:13:47: And so, as you said they can never really show any weaknesses.

00:13:51: Which is sad because I came from a very athletic sporty background right and i always thought okay top performing teams work well together.

00:14:02: They're never pitted against each other.

00:14:04: So then when I graduated university and went into corporate environment I was looking at my executive team thinking why are they pitted against each other?

00:14:13: Why do they feel that they need to protect themselves from each other.

00:14:19: And I just never understood that and i think it's getting a little better now.

00:14:24: concerns was leadership development, but the well-being of a leader should not be ignored and so our program encourages leadership participation.

00:14:32: It's not just for employees it is also for leaders.

00:14:36: they can participate without calling them out or putting in spotlights.

00:14:47: Yeah,

00:14:50: as you said.

00:14:51: You know like it's lonely at the top and just because you make a lot of money doesn't mean your super happy all the time.

00:14:59: And yourself?

00:15:00: Do experience also in your career when top management yeah self harm themself right.

00:15:07: so maybe Was that also something that inspired you to found says life

00:15:12: absolutely.

00:15:13: So they said one of the triggers that helped me Get motivated to create this company and build a product like says life we.

00:15:25: We had some incidents in my previous employer where sadly the CEO and our CFO both committed suicide and Suicide.

00:15:36: numbers of mental health are really coming to the forefront, and they're getting much more Acknowledgement nowadays, I think.

00:15:46: Men are typically need to be very tough and they can never talk about it but there's some great organizations now really bringing men's health To the forefront.

00:15:55: so when that happened i thought It was my duty as a risk manager to really do a deeper dive into this particular area of people risk management.

00:16:06: And so I've been working in this field for just over six years now, and did my dissertation on executive level stress... ...and the learnings that i took through that research have helped parlay how we approach protecting employees, enabling leaders to look after their people and giving the corporation all their corporate level framework in governance that's required to manage well-being in a strategic capacity.

00:16:40: Jennifer do you think in general speaking suicide is still taboo in our society?

00:16:47: In some societies not at all.

00:16:52: so it just depends on what country and culture you're in.

00:16:56: I think North America, Western Europe Australia Think they do a good job right now at bringing men's health into the limelight as of late.

00:17:12: In the last few years i think i've seen A number of organizations really start And push that agenda forward Which is it's really necessary.

00:17:20: and as I said earlier, you know over eighty percent of the workforce saying they have mental health issues post-pandemic.

00:17:28: so That's not all coming from women.

00:17:31: It's also coming for men So we shouldn't ignore it And so I really applaud some of these male focused organizations bringing men's health into the limelight.

00:17:40: Jennifer would like to know Is there a certain let's say breaking point that leaders are reached, like an early indicator or you can see a leader approaches in the organization.

00:18:00: Are there certain indicators for this breaking point?

00:18:03: It's very good question and delicate answer so... There is some technology exists that compiles various different paramedics.

00:18:13: Parametrics as fancy word.

00:18:16: different data points, right?

00:18:17: Different pieces of information and they might gather that anywhere from your credit card receipts to what you're doing on social media.

00:18:25: You could be monitored how you type on a keyboard or how you move your mouse.

00:18:32: Your eyes can be viewed when you are doing videos.

00:18:34: so the dilation over people there is lot.

00:18:37: technology actually provide data point for what's called predictive analytics and can give leading indicators or indicators around behavioral risk, right?

00:18:53: Certain data points have always been used for example with life insurance.

00:18:59: And given the state of the world today and different various components... The data points for life insurance models change and so forth And we have taken the position that we didn't want to use predictive analytics.

00:19:18: We're not an insurance company and we are not pricing insurance, or a broker either.

00:19:23: so The job of predicting someone's behavior Or someones mental health is something That we didnt' Wanted do ,we wanted To Have Something gave a sense of trust to people and individuals in the working environment that wasn't requiring all these data points we brought together, to predict what you're going do tomorrow.

00:19:55: We didn't want that!

00:19:56: We wanted be able give guidance for them, encourage them reach out if they need it... And have structured risk management program for the corporate entity to be able to strategically manage well-being, risk in their organization but not have to pinpoint specific behavioral predictions and giving them a prevention focus.

00:20:29: In terms of how they plan their actions.

00:20:35: Right, so yes there are predictive indicators.

00:20:38: So someone's going to be XY percentage more inclined for burnout.

00:20:45: right and then the but they landed on that because They looked at all these different data points And then did some prediction analysis around it.

00:20:55: But it's a little like that movie minority report right?

00:20:58: So they can predict this behavior But at the end of the day is that person going to do or not is a different story.

00:21:05: And so we didn't feel that predictive analytics to define if someone was going to be XYZ, the way that we wanted shape our solution

00:21:17: and for whom Jennifer?

00:21:18: Is what kind of companies are interesting as multi-nationals medium sized companies also scale up startups.

00:21:26: can you elaborate on that one?

00:21:29: It's interesting.

00:21:30: I think any organization has people in it.

00:21:36: People issues are really the core root cause of all other problems that you could have in your company.

00:21:47: When I went into risk management from finance and IT, and understanding your risks would actually help you be successful because, it should very close to the CEO.

00:22:00: You know whoever's doing business development should be very close these topics Because in order to succeed you want to know what is going stop.

00:22:07: And so I think by understanding some prevention tactics around these people topics that really impact everything that happens in your company, you can really move the needle on improving your business performance.

00:22:26: So how big do you think is awareness at the moment and market with corporations?

00:22:33: In terms of mental awareness off their employees... That's a

00:22:45: good question.

00:22:51: Of knowing that there is issues?

00:22:53: Yeah, or let's say motivation also to solve those kind of issues.

00:22:59: Sadly I think most companies right now are understanding that the regulators Are going to require them to provide evidence Of what they're doing To prevent and structure The management of well-being And thats increasing the amount of pressure on leadership.

00:23:20: But i do believe And more sadly, that leadership is still in a position right now where they are either afraid to know what's going on or they're mistaken and feel like if you don't know them then not legally liable for anything about it.

00:23:41: So raising your hand saying I didn't know there was problem isn't actually an answer

00:23:48: anymore.

00:23:49: So there's room for creating more awareness also.

00:23:53: Oh, absolutely and I think I touched on this before around getting leaders to feel safe, and have a structured program around well-being.

00:24:05: And understanding what they don't know is going in their workplace or outside of the work place Or just understanding that workforce better.

00:24:14: How enable them take care with people?

00:24:18: Because most of those do want to take care Right?

00:24:25: And so giving them and enabling them to feel safe, and feel comfortable potentially pointing out the areas that have higher risk or lower risks.

00:24:38: How much does it look like?

00:24:42: The data they need to make decisions is important but putting in a place where their accepting what is a little bit of an art form.

00:25:22: evolution of the topic.

00:25:23: I don't

00:25:24: have statistics on that off-the top in my head, but i think thats part of your risks and you need to identify it.

00:25:31: so... That's a question Does Your Company Have A Risk That People Are Calling In Sick When They're Actually Not?

00:25:41: You Probably Want To Know That And Why?

00:25:45: Doing Something About It So You Don'T Have?

00:25:47: Take A Reactive Approach.

00:25:50: Take a preventative approach.

00:25:52: Understand, oh yeah okay well sixty percent of the people that call in sick for example are not.

00:26:02: you know really sick.

00:26:04: I don't what number might be but maybe something they want to know.

00:26:08: and so

00:26:09: sticking your head into sand pretending it doesn't exist isn't going.

00:26:14: Yeah, you just sold me now on the product.

00:26:18: Jennifer thank you so much for dropping by.

00:26:20: it was really a pleasure.

00:26:21: wish you all the best success and nothing less And hopefully see you soon.

00:26:25: Thank You I love being here and i look forward to seeing again.